Good attitude. I find that for me when I start to judge other people I am closing up and often my observations and judgements are inaccurate or at least not the whole picture.

I remember going to Indonesia months ago with all that stuff in my head about Nike being a sweatshop and realising that on a local level the people couldn't care less how much the damn shoes sell for, their job is probably better than most of the other locals. Diffrerent perspective and one that's so hard to see if you are in a western environment.

The stuff going on out here in Thailand isn't for a lot of people. People are friendly though and the other night Sean and i played Jenga with the girls for a long time and no suggestion were made, just good vibes.

Personally I reckon people should do what they like as long as personal freedom and choice are respected.

it may be difficult in bangkok, but one really shouldn't assume *all* bar girls are working girls. it can be really offending for an asian female tourist to be proferred by a foreigner, just as much as for a local girl who is a waitress or other service girl and nothing more. (of course, even suggesting that one *should* be offended by the question is already making a judgement.) the fact is that business people the world over know that to get guys to drink and spend money, there is no better lure than cute beckoning girls.

on the other hand, bangkok is definitely about sexual tourism. you only need to see virtually every foreign male with a thai girlfriend or boyfriend, that they often have difficulty communicating with, to feel that. if you're interested there are quite a few sociological books that examine the whole scene and have many views from the working side of things (btw, there's a good expat bookstore around sukhumvit soi3-5 opposite nana, i think its a "Booksmith" or something like that; you can also check out the ex-pat authority on virtualy everything in bangkok at www.stickmanbangkok.com). an interesting figure from lonely planet is that the income from the sex trade funds more development in the hinterland than all the government and NGO funding combined!! fathom that!

The thing I didn't like, which I saw a bit more in the north of Thailand , was middle-aged westerners with their ten year old Thai 'girlfriends'.

Leave the kids alone and get a grown woman.

Damn us and our Catholic upbringings...

Enjoyed the blog and the discussion following. The new book from Traveler's Tales, "Sand In My Bra" features a funny story of Bankok sex toursism from a western female perspective. Check it out.

While I admire you not wanting to pass judgement, I have to agree with another poster who mentioned the kids. When in Patpong, I saw this like 50 year old guy take home a like 13 year old girl - she didn't even have breasts yet...that is utterly disgusting. Also, it's sad that prostitution is how these poor women have to support their families.

Wow, the above expose on DREW WALTER NOYES raises more questions than there are answers. For instance, what was the author's motivation for writing such a biography? Is it somebody who was on the wrong end of a con by by DREW WALTER NOYES or is the biography government sponsored? By that, I mean, the biography is so well researched and so extensive that it reads like something written by a CIA biographer - Daniel Thompson? Now, is that a real name or a pseudonym?? :) The biography is perfectly punctuatedbut, is dotted with strategic gramatically errors to read like it was perhaps written by a Thai but, that wouldn't make any sense because I've never met a Thai named Daniel Thompson. My conspiracy-theory guess is that the biography is written and sponsored by the USA government because the subject is claiming that he works for the CIA which would fit in with his fraud career. I don't condone the subject's behavior. As a matter of fact, I find it reprehensible. And, I guess that publishing all of his personal information including passport number and home address is fair game too since he is residing outside of the United States. Otherwise, I would think that publishing somebody's personal information is illegal in the United States. I mean, basically, any vigilanti could do this guy some physical harm now... That's the extent of my two cents...

Hey Jessie, thanks for referring to my story, "A Prude in Patpong." And for getting the book!

I am utterly disgusted about the sex tourism that goes on in many countries in Asia and other Latin American Countries. I love Asian girls, but I respect them. I actually think of something like a Goddess/Deity, which I worship, in the shape of a beautiful Asian woman. I think that exists, which drives men crazy, but most men can't see that. I puke wrathful nauseating thoughts when I hear that fat-white pink-caucasian males with fat wives back home getting laid with obviously beautiful young Asian girls. May the wrath of the Goddess come down upon them and slaughter their souls. May massive amounts of grief and despair descend upon those that promete Sex Tourism industry. Me, I am just an angry one that thinks that the maddening beauty of some women is something like the beauty of the mystery of existence projected onto the sorry souls of men like hungry ghosts that try to control their desires through institutions of grotesque capitalist gains. Through this words I express that which looks like a wrathful deity, hoping that those heads which it holds like a necklace throughout it's neck is that of those being pleased by this beautiful girls by means of capital and rascist institutions.

I have NO idea how I stumbled upon this VERY interesting chain of post's. Oh yes, I was listening to the radio and One Night in Bangkok was playing and I wanted to know who sang it.... so anyway.. I want to know how Nick and Sean's trip has been so far. I haven't seen any post's from them in awhile. As far as Drew.. he's just someone that has figured out how to screw (forgive the pun) the system and everyone around him.. He will meet his maker eventually and it sounds like his karma account is long over drawn.

Just so you know, Patpong and Pattaya were built to supply farang tourist demands.
Prostitutes or Aids never bother in good Thai communities or nighborhoods. Each country has a negative side. Don't generalize Thailand as a sex tourism country because of two bad seeds. Stay away from Sukhumvit St. if you don't want to see the bad business. There are plenty of good hotels and culteral sites all over the city, why do farangs choose to stay and hang out in the area?
Sukhumvit during the day is a business district, but at night allThais know it's a bad area. Anyway, my point is if you are in a bad neighborhood, you would see nothing but the bad, and your perspective would not go further than what you see.
Well, I accept that my country has a problem but nothing is perfect in the world, is it?
Thailand is just a poor country that was taken advantage of by farangs with $$$ in hand. Prostitutions and Aids are problems that the government has looked into and has worked on.
I think it will take ages to get rid of the problems. If you people have good will in helping my country, please stop coming here just for sex.
Bottom line: The bad business can't survive without patrons.

Hello
In all my travels in 'The land of smiles' I saw much that was good and little that was bad. You seek out your own level and needn't find the filth if you're there for the people and fine food. Look for the temples and not the tits...unless that's what your into. Most of my travel was pre-HIV and pre-rock cocaine so it was less seemy than my last two trips but Soi Cowboy will provide plenty a local 'to ride' if that's your ideal of travel. My current mantra is "Look but don't touch," unless you want to get a social ailment. Like anywhere in the world, the culture you find reflects what you seek.
Although...those ladies are some of the most accomodating prostitutes you're likely to find anywhere in the world, particularly in the smaller cities. Satahip is recommended as an industrial city with less cranky working girls. Just a suggestion.

Interesting thread. The non-judgmental thing, folks, sounds good but often overlooks the reality that supposedly consenting people often are not in fact both 'consenting'; also that a system that ostensibly involves free choice by some will inevitably lead to victimization of others. I spent some time in Bkk this summer with my wife and kids, and we got to know a group of delightful young women from Isaan who were working in Soi Cowboy and Nana purely out of pressure from their families. One for instance said, "My mother brought me to Cowboy 2 and told me I had to work there. I didn't know it until I got there." One day these friends brought to us a 15 year old, who looked 12 or 13, saying her mother had brought her to work at their bar. Her older sister was working at Nana. Fortunately the Cowboy 2 owner turned her down. We met the mom, who told the usual story--the family was in debt on some land, needed the girls to pay it off. The older daughter, also very smart and personable, had already been pulling in $1000/month for 3 years in the business, but that just wasn't enough. Well, eventually she found a bar that would take the 15 year-old.

There are may ways in which a system creates victims. One is that the lucrative nature of prostitution is disincentive for families to provide education to their daughters.

Sure we did meet some older women who were there by choice and didn't speak of family pressure. Usually these were single moms just trying to do the best for their kids. But in no case did we meet someone who saw this as their preferred line of work. The ideal most had was to find a Japanese or Western "husband".

Overall however, the clear sense we got was that the vast majority of the women working in Bangkok could easily be classified as victims, not as freely consenting adults.

We did not talk to any of the men we saw picking up women, but hope to do that in the future. I daresay there are some who are pretty helplessly caught in sexual addiction and are not happy about it.

That's not to say we should "judge" those who do participate. Judging shouldn't the point, really--the point should be what are any of us going to do to help out those who are victimized?

I've never been to Thailand but I've heard a lot of stuff about this. I think Jim's way of looking at it is very interesting... because truly these women are victims. Victims of what? Of cut-throat capitalism. If they needn't be put into a system in which they have to end up being "Bar-Girls" none of these would happen. These people as well as many other groups in poor countries (of course, even mentioning "poor countries" makes us realize that un-equality in the world is becoming to stink of rotten) are being put into similar situations. Just changing our mind into a less capitalistic way of looking at life can bring about change even indirectly. I think the problem also lies within the fact that human relationship have become so artificalized that there are countless products exploiting sex as a tool for pleasure. Exploitation of women seems a common characteristic of all cultures, we must begin to realize if there's a way to bring about change in this aspect, maybe by beginning to realize that the only true way women can be appreciated is by respect first of all... and I say this as a victim too. But I'm pretty pissed off about it. Please give me some comments because I don't know if I'm beginning to lose focus here... thanks

A little googling produced the following tidbit:

http://csf.colorado.edu/pen-l/2000III/msg03558.html

"Tourism has had a particularly big influence on making the sex
industry a common economic option for poor women in Thailand.'Even
though foreign men are a small portion [of the sex industry's total
clientele], they generally pay more for commercial sex services' Thus
sex tourists help fuel the fire by making sex work more profitable and
glamorous."

Rage against the 'fat, ugly' farangs? Sure. But you should examine your rage and examine the injustice.

Do we condemn the demand from foreigners when, on a headcount basis, the demand from Thais is higher?

'Sexual addiction' is a scornful term used by those who don't like someone else's preferences or habits. There are huge ranges of sexual preferneces and habits in humans. Some prefer more sex, some prefer less. Some seek out multiple partners, others are monogamous (or serially monogamous). The base level of acceptance for sexual behavior should be that sex between consenting adults is ok.

People should never be condemned for their feelings - these are neither right nor wrong, they just are (religion, society, etc. takes special delight in torturing people for simply having sexual feelings).

People may be condemned for their acts.

'Adult' is a community defined standard and fairly objective (there is a gray area in cases where the birth date is neither documented nor remembered).

We can debate 'consenting'. My take is that if they are children they should not be in the business. If they are adults and there is coercion from someone they should not be in the business (unless the coercion is removed and they choose to remain).

If they are adults and there is no coercion from a person then they can do whatever they want. They should charge fees that a) reflect the market price for their service and b) reflect the potentially medically unhealthy and deadly nature of their line of work. As for example, a worker on an oil rig does - she is paid for taking the risk that she may be injured or killed.

The interesting question arises - does economic disadvantage, in an otherwise uncoerced adult, constitute coercion? Who do we blame (if we choose to indulge in that very human emotion)? The farang? the provider's parents? The government?

The system that we (as a world) seem to be gravitating to is 'mutual coercion mutually agreed upon'. Economic necessity is the taskmaster that drives us all - farang and Thai. The reason I can't have that bowl of rice for less than the current market price is because of all the other people bidding on the same bowl of rice.

The system that seems to be falling out of favour is 'coercion by another' - for example, coercion by the army, the party, the leader, the church, etc..

The economic realm tends over time to take precedence over the social roadblocks we put up to distasteful commerce. Produce an economic argument why prostitution should not happen and it will not happen. Someone's making *alot* of money of the status quo and despite traditional values things aren't gonna change anytime soon until the economy picks up.

I think your comments are very good. I appreciate the attention you put into this particular situation. Something I would like you to think about, is the way in which sometimes Asian women are seen by western men. I browsed through some websites "STREET MEAT ASIA" and "EXPLOITED TEENS". They both seemed to be taking place somewhere in Asia and probably these girls were getting paid a lot by whoever created them. What really bothers me, is not the fact that these people are getting their sexual habits taken care of, but the fact that there is not a single respectful line written about these females. The result then, is, many males that find the internet their only source of beautiful women for masturbation purposes are getting a very distorted/disrespectful view towards women through things like this. I am overall very offended at Asian women being labeled "MEAT" or "EXPLOITED TEENS". This is not only about Asian women though, many lowly names are given to consenting girls everywhere around the world. As in the case of Thailand in particular, I have also found out that it is the "paradise country" that many people seek to lose contact from the industrialized countries they live in (seeking mushroom trips, rave parties, beach resorts, sex, etc). I think this is due to the fact that people are finding emptiness in their lives and seek ever-demanding pleasurable sensations. I have the theory that since Thailand has big Buddhist presence, it is this blinding light of Buddha that is getting people out of control (since they can't acknowledge the respect that lies in appreciating beauty). The exploitation of Asian women is really degenerating the Asian race in general. I typed the words : Asian girls on yahoo and 98% of the links were pornography. If I typed the words : White girls, there was no pornographic links, there was just a little if I typed "Black girls" and a little more if I typed "Latin girls". This is kind of sad for Asian women in general because they are being targeted as a sexualized group.

I lived in SE Asia almost a year in the late 60s. Yes, as a US soldier in Viet Nam and Thailand. While my military outfit was one of the few outside air bases in Thailand I did see a fair part of the country. 35 years ago the female sex trade was vigorous! Unfortunately I cannot count the number of times a male tried to sell me the services of his younger "sister". Sounds like what friends have told me and this site implies are only worse now than when I was there. BUT, make no mistake, Thailand is an unbelievable and beautiful country. From the highlands to the South China Sea there are so many awe inspiring sites. I would go back again in a heartbeat...but I would take my wife! I expect that men who go to Thailand for sex do the same thing at home, just not so fearlessly.

this post reminds me of articles i read a few years ago on prostitution in china. the articles described how overcrowded group homes, full of unwanted and abandoned girls, are targeted by men who would lure many into prostitution by offering dreams of good, decent jobs. once in their control, however, the women were trapped, with no place to escape to, and no one to turn to....

some of you actually CHOOSE not to pass judgment?!?!!!? you SHOULD pass judgment!!!! however, not on the poor girls who are taken advantage of day after day after day, who would never actually CHOOSE careers in prostitution, rather on the government that has not ended the life of this industry, and the disgusting men who pay for these services.

i can't even believe that some of you can actually have such passive responses on such a disturbing matter....

The government is toying with legalization. No one really knows how to end the misery. The only consensus is that there is no consensus.

http://www.abc.net.au/correspondents/content/2003/s1004826.htm

Study the animal. Once you understand what makes humans tick then you will be able to steer them in the right direction, just as the farmer guides the herd ... until then we're simply trying to bash a square peg into a round hole.

Really nice bit about the Buddhism in Thailand being an inspiration which people misread or get lost in. As to the Government's responsibility in what is wrong with the sex industry, three cheers for the Srong Asian Woman. In China, which she mentions, the army is not only complicit in, but actually the enforcement arm, of the racket. When this teams up with ethnic prejudice in occupied Tibet, you see the sex industry being used as a component of cultural genocide. Here, you'd have to give the Thai government kudos for restraining the trade in a manner most likely to result in it being somewhat safer, and for having had great success in this. Again, the contrast with China is striking: Health issues in the sex industry in China have been swept under the carpet and, cultural genocide in Tibet aside, HIV transmission has mushroomed, where in Thailand the experts reckon the gov.'s information camopaign has kept things somewhat in check.

I don't know if the higher prices the Westerners pay encourages the practice or simply moves it to a less unremunerative plane, like the Nike 'sweatshops' which are actually the best ticket out of a explitative, no-hope economy. Most of the foreign sex trade in Thailand is of course with the Chinese; Japan is a close second, and Thais of course the major part. As the Lonley Planet intro tells us, the commercial part of the operation was introduced by the great Colonizers of SE Asia, the Chinese, long ago. To see the border towns with Malaysia, where the business is almost exclusively Chinese, is to glimpse a most depressing future for a tributary state to the Middle Kingdom. Now, the beloved president of China wants to establish an airport in Chung-Mai so that it can have direct links to the Chinese mainland, and make that the primary point of entry for Chinese tourists. Do the math.